By Susan Kendi
Dominic Ongwen’s “wife” has denied trying to influence his former wives not to harm his case.
Witness D-13, Ayot Florence, denied ever having received a telephone call from Ongwen while he was detained in Hague.
“He has never called me but he called Aber Agnes [another of Ongwen’s former wives]” saids Ayot.
This was proved to be false when a conversation between herself and Ongwen was played in the court.
Benjamin Gumpert, one of the prosecution lawyers did follow up questions on the private phone conversation and seemed determined to get all his answers.
In the conversation, Ayot is heard assuring Ongwen that she had coached and influenced “them” to speak in “one voice” and not harm his defence.
“Is it the truth that you have been influencing the other women to speak with one voice that would not harm Ongwen’s defence?” asked Gumpert.
There was loud deafening silence from Ayot irrespective of Gumpert attempting to re-ask the question.
“Are you willing to answer my question?” asked Gumpert.
The presiding Judge intervened and informed the witness that she has the right not to answer if it will incriminate her. He went ahead and requested that the trial lawyer Gumpert re-reads the question to the witness. This was just the first account with three others on line.
The second intervention came right after when Ayot failed to answer the question and he reminded her that she has right not to answer if it might be self-incriminating.
Another, was when she failed to answer irrespective of the legal advice offered to her and Judge Bertram Schmitt had to confirm whether she was getting the questions.
Finally, the Judge intervened requesting that on behalf of the prosecution, Gumpert provides assurances that Ayot would not be prosecuted on the ground that she will be truthful. Gumpert agreed and the hearing went on a private session and resumed with Gumpert repeating the same question.
Ayot Florence courted and lived with Ongwen for two and a half years, after her husband died.
Here are some of the excerpts between Benjamin Gumpert and Ayot Florence:
Gumpert: A sound recording was made by the registry and I want you to listen to what you said. It is a confidential document.
Judge Bertram Schmitt: It looks like a public file to me is there anyone objecting for it to be played in public session?
Gumpert: I think that since it is a private conversation it should be played in private session.
Judge Bertram Schmitt: It will be played in private session but discussed in public session
Gumpert: First we are hearing to voices of two women. The first voice is [Agnes] Aber and Ongwen asks her to give the phone to Min bak [Ayot] then we hear your voice greeting Dominic Ongwen can’t we?
Ayot: That’s my voice
Gumpert: I want you to hear what you told Ongwen?
[Court goes into private session to listen to the portion of the recording then resumes with Gumpert questioning Ayot]
Gumpert: The voice we heard was yours. He was saying that there was no problems with you but was worried other people would talk carelessly?
Ayot: That is correct but he said like that because we had gathered and agreed. They did not allow our children to go home. We said that each child should go to their fathers’ home.
Gumpert: He told you ladies he considered as his wives, that you need to be wise?
Ayot: Yes. He said we should be wise and not mess around because there were diseases.
Gumpert: There were no mention of diseases witness right?
Ayot: He said we be wise.
Gumpert: You said, “I have influenced them.” You meant the other wives?
Ayot: I told him I have spoken to them.
Gumpert: I have already coached and influenced them that is what you said?
Ayot: [Ayot is silent for about 30 seconds] To say that I taught them I said. Because I was mature and organised because some did not know where the home of their husband was I showed them.
Gumpert: You reassured them that even though there was disagreement there was now one voice you meant the other women?
Ayot: Yes. The disagreement, like Apiyo told us the grandmother of the children to take her to Ongwen so we adviced her since it was a boy child it was good for him to know his father’s home.
Gumpert: Is it the truth that you have been influencing the other women to speak with one voice that would not harm Ongwen’s defence?
Judge Bertram Schmitt: If answering, may incriminate you madam witness, you don’t have to answer.
Gumpert: Are you willing to answer my question?
[Goes to private session]
Judge Bertram Schmitt: Madam Witness, you may object to answer the question if it incriminates you.
Gumpert: Is it the truth that you have been influencing the other women to speak with one voice that would not harm Ongwen’s defence?
Ayot: I did not influenced them I just advised them to take children to their fathers.
Gumpert: After that meeting you spoke to Ongwen on telephone again?
Ayot: I do not recall that
[Refreshing witness’ memory by playing audio]
Gumpert: We heard two voices yours and Ongwen’s. Do you confirm that?
Ayot: Yes
Gumpert: And we heard you assuring Ongwen that you were not going to say anything. Is that Correct?
Ayot: [Silence for a few minutes] I said that I would not say anything coz we were taking of something that was taking place at home
Gumpert: Let me move on, you also said “I told these people not to say anything” by people you meant the other women Ongwen considered as his wives?
Ayot: [Silence for a while] Yes
Judge Bertram Schmitt: Is the witness getting the questions?
People in the gallery: The witness is getting the questions
Ayot: What I said is that the truth lasts because if you refuse to take your children to meet their fathers they know the children exist. That is what I mean, the truth lasts to know their homes, their lineage, where they come from.
Gumpert: I want to play you something you said later in the same conversation
[Private session]
Gumpert: “The other people make utterance not pleasant to hear.” Madam Witness we heard you telling Ongwen he should not trust some people because they would make some utterance.” The other people make utterance not pleasant to hear. Who are those people you were talking about?
Ayot: Let me give you an example. I was invited we went to Ochora Walters home…These people came from the ICC.
Gumpert: Do you know Dominic?
Ayot: Yes
Gumpert: Do you know what he did?
Ayot: I said nothing. A lady who was there said, “How can you not know what he did?” They gave me a document to sign and I refused. She was forcing me to sign the document. “You know everything he did, sign this document.” I told her “I cannot sign this document to be a prosecution witness.” I told her the truth always lasts. This lady was coercive. She said let’s take the children to have DNA taken. I told her why I should do a DNA test when the father and I know that they are his.
Gumpert: You said,” Fortunately, they don’t have time to talk .Even if they talked we are the ones who were staying with you.” Why is it fortunately?
Ayot: I have nothing to say.
Gumpert: The last passage is longer
[Private session]
Gumpert: Because you can come chat with me.I do not know how to talk and spill the beans like other people, you were reassuring Dominic Ongwen you would keep his secrets?
Ayot: It is not like that. Aber told me that he also spoke the same thing with Dominic but I am shocked that it is my recording that was recorded
Gumpert: You and Ongwen were together during iron fist?
Ayot: Most times we were together but there were times we were separated [Two years and a half period]
Gumpert: You and Ongwen loved and trusted each other is that right?
Ayot: That is correct
Gumpert: An example when he was planning to escape with Nyeko, he included you in his plans?
Ayot: That’s correct
Gumpert: And your position in his household was a special one because you two had courted each other?
Ayot: Yes but he treated all of us equally
Gumpert: Of all people in his household would it be right to say you knew him the best?
Ayot: He treated us all equally. I did not know him any different from others.
Gumpert: You were the only one who had courted Ongwen. You had fallen in love with him right?
Ayot: Yes. The two of us courted.
Gumpert: When you fell in love with him what are the characteristics of Ongwen that attracted to him?
Ayot: He was a nice person. He was sociable. The way he treated his women. This is why I decided to stay with him how he treated his wives.
Gumpert: You spoke of issue of fairness how he treated your son from the other marriage and his women. Is that a characteristic of Ongwen, a just person?
Ayot: Yes, he was a just person.
Gumpert: You told yesterday there were rules in the LRA, yes?
Ayot: Yes
Gumpert: And when Ongwen soldiers did things against the rules would he judge on the matter?
Ayot: No those rules did not exist. According to the rules you should not mistreat your wife or anyone under your command.
Gumpert: There were cases where people mistreated their wives?
Ayot: I did not witness that anything that was brought to him to resolve. It was taken to the division.
Gumpert: What were the worst things about Ongwen?
Ayot: Well within his household I did not witness anything bad. I did not see people arguing or fighting. The soldiers stayed with us well. They would say good morning to us and leave.
Gumpert: I was asking about your personal relationship? Did he ever complain that the coffee was cold or about the food?
Ayot: Whenever we brought food we would eat together, there was no time he said that the food or tea is not nice. I did not see or witness [such thing]
Gumpert: But you knew during these period he was committing serious atrocities?
Ayot: I do not know the crimes.
Gumpert: In June 2012 you gave an interview to a journalist called Samuel Okiror?
Ayot: I do not recall that
(Refreshing her memory. A photograph is shown to Ayot)
Gumpert: That is you?
Ayot: Yes. I have had several photos taken and this is one of them.
Gumpert: When you gave this interview, [it] was over two years before Ongwen came to The Hague?
Ayot: Yes. Well I also have a question.
Judge Bertram Schmitt: Madam Witness, only the counsel has the right to ask questions. If you feel that you need a break let us know.
Gumpert: Now Mr Okiror, worked for Erin an agency founded by [United Nations] UN. He explained who he was and who he worked?
Ayot: Yes he did
Gumpert: And you trusted him to carry out a fair interview with you?
Ayot: Well, I am not certain about that.
Gumpert: I will read to you some things you told Samuel Okero. “If there was a means government would link me to speak with Dominic I was request him to renounce rebellion and apply for amnesty in order for him to come home and reconcile with the community he wronged. Let the ICC spare Dominic and forgive him for his crimes so that he could come back home and take care of his children. I know he committed very serious and terrible atrocities. People were killed, raped and abducted by rebels. I fear that people may revenge to me and my children. I leave everything to God.
Gumpert: Which are atrocities you know Ongwen committed?
Ayot: Whatever I said what LRA did with reference to Kony even us came home and we are stigmatized. We are fearful about how we would raise our kids. Our plea was for him to come back. So that the ICC could forgive him and he could be granted amnesty. We went to [Justice and Reconciliation Project] JRP, asking them to call back
Gumpert: When you say he committed very serious atrocities which one did you mean?
Ayot: I did not mean Ongwen. I said the LRA committed this crimes.
Gumpert: If there was a means government would link me to speak with Dominic I was request him to renounce rebellion and apply for amnesty. Is that correct?
Ayot: That is correct. Because we were also advised to plead our husbands to come home.
Gumpert: You spoke of a meeting organised at JRP?
Ayot: Yes
Gumpert: It is in Gulu right?
Ayot: Yes…The meeting comprised three groups of women who came from the bush. There were those that came back and had no means, so they would explain and talk of their problems. Later on they also brought men in and gave us money to start our businesses.
Gumpert: I want to focus on the meeting held June 2, 2015.Do you remember that meeting?
Ayot: I don’t remember dates
Gumpert: There was a meeting where women who Ongwen considered them as his wives there Nancy, Aber, Jennifer, Minabea all that?
Ayot: Yes
Gumpert: There was also a lady called Vicky?
Ayot: Yes
Gumpert: And she is someone you have worked with at Women’s advocacy network?
Ayot: Yes
Gumpert: This day Ongwen called you by telephone in The Hague?
Ayot: He has never called me but he called Aber Agnes
Gumpert: He asked the telephone to be handed around?
Ayot: Yes
Gumpert: But he mostly spoke to you?
Ayot: No.I spoke briefly and went back to the meeting
Gumpert: You were the person that Ongwen trusted the most you knew that?
Ayot: I know he trusted everyone for he treated everyone fairly.
Just before the prosecution took the floor, Ayot was questioned by one of the Defence lawyers, Thomas Obhof.
Here are the excerpts:
Obhof: Good morning Madam Witness
Ayot: Good morning
Obhof: Can you please state your name to the Court?
Ayot: My name is Ayot Florence
Obhof: Have you ever been known by any other name?
Ayot: My names are the ones I have stated
Obhof: Have you ever been called Min bak?
Ayot: Yes from the bush I was called that
Obhof: And how does a woman in Acholi get the name Min?
Ayot: That name is an honour to you for giving birth to a child and you become the mother to the child [Bak being her firstborn son]
Obhof: What happened to your mother after you were born?
Ayot: As soon as I was born she passed away. My aunt took care of me up to [my] abduction. My mother was a student when she gave birth to me so I don’t know my father for it was not indicated.
Obhof: What was life like when you were living with your aunt?
Ayot: Life was good. My cousin took me and I was living in Masaka with her. When returning home at Opaga and Kony’s people shot at the vehicle unfortunately my cousin died and I survived. Kony abducted me and other children…We were attacked by government soldiers if you are lucky you jump over a dead body and run if you are unlucky you die.
Obhof: Do you remember the group that abducted you?
Ayot: I cannot remember the name
Obhof: You said you headed east after the abduction how familiar were you with the area you were taken to?
Ayot: I do not know it was in the wild. I asked my colleagues and they said it was Koch.
Obhof: Did you know Koch?
Ayot: I did not know it was in the wild
Obhof: Did the LRA make you carry anything?
Ayot: Yes a jerican and sauce pans…We would wake up at 5:00am and there were controllers. You would come fetch water and pour as people are praying there would be some who would be sprinkling water in the yard.
Ayot’s testimony came to a close and Judge Bertram Schmitt mentioned that a one day witness, D-138 would take stand on Monday, September 30, 2019.
